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Chema Jim茅nez Orva帽anos, MA., is a Pacifica alumni from Pacifica鈥檚 Counseling Psychology M.A. program, as well as being a practicing psychotherapist in Mexico City. They will be presenting on 鈥淨ueerness in Analysis: A dance with shame鈥� at Journey Week. Journey Week is an immersive week of learning and connecting at 51社区, September 26th 鈥� 29th, 2024. For more information and to register, visit us . I鈥檓 delighted to speak with Chema about their work and upcoming talk.听听

Angela Borda: Thank you so much for speaking with me today, Chema. I just saw an ad for Drag Race: Mexico City, a spin-off of RuPaul鈥檚 Drag Race TV show, and I at first thought, 鈥淭he times are changing,鈥� but then I wondered, 鈥淎re they really?鈥� I don鈥檛 know that much about Mexico and queer culture/history. So may I first ask for your general impression of what it means to be living as a non-binary, queer person in Mexico?听

Chema Jim茅nez Orva帽anos: I鈥檝e always lived in Mexico City, so it鈥檚 important to take that into account. If I had been born in other parts of Mexico, it would be a different situation. Mexico is a complex country, which colors queer culture. In Mexico City in particular, there鈥檚 a long history of activism. We鈥檙e progressive legislatively. For example, same sex marriage in Mexico has been legal federally before it was in the United States; so at least on paper, Mexico is much more open. Recently there was also an initiative to criminalize conversion therapy at a federal level. It鈥檚 not a utopia, but in general there is a long history of queer activism. Because we鈥檙e close to the U.S., it鈥檚 easy for our thoughts to be colonized. There is a lot of difficulty with class and race, violence, and your experience is colored by your privileges. So if you have money and live in certain parts of the city, your experience can be very different from other parts of the city. 听

Angela: I see that you are an organizing member of the International Queer Jungian Initiative, as well as being part of the Lesbianas Junguianas Collective in South America. So my next question, in a general sense, is how do Jung and depth psychology serve the LGBTQ+ community? Is there much that needs to change and evolve in depth psychology to better serve this population?听

Chema: One of the founders of the Queer Jungians is my friend George Taxidis, who is currently working on a book with a chapter called 鈥淚s Jung Queer?鈥� And that鈥檚 a good place to get into this topic. When I met the queer Jungians, I couldn鈥檛 believe they existed. It鈥檚 such a specific niche, and I thought I was the only one. Who else inhabits these particular crossroads? It鈥檚 been enriching to relate to them and think together and question how we鈥檙e drawn to Jung when in so many senses, he was a white, cis-straight, Swiss guy, married to the richest woman in Switzerland, and there are passages in his biography and the Red Book where 鈥渙thering鈥� takes up so much space. There is racism and classicism, and the binary theory around sexuality is rigid. Yet, at the same time, for the first time in the west, Jung suggested there was a feminine side inside men, and it was crucial for men to make room for the feminine within. And there is the alchemical aspect, the transcendent function. So around the issue of Jung and queerness, I say that there are many Jungs. He was limited by his context, upbringing, and privileges, but at the same time he had this subtlety about him and he opened the way in many senses.听听

I think that, in order to individuate, you have to question the norms with which you were brought up. So to go through that process inevitably has an element of heresy. The ways in which Jungian theory can be useful to queerness are more or less accidental, but they have to do with following the images of your subconscious, and there are a lot of tools for relating to otherness that are useful when thinking of the queer experience. In that sense, queerness can be useful for everyone; when you take the invitation of queerness, even if you are closer to the norm, you get to explore beyond the boundaries of what you know or what is accepted.听听

If you鈥檙e asking if Jungian psychology will survive the 21st century, the answer is yes, if it changes. We have a tendency to become dogmatic in our approach to our forebears. I think that Jung always had this caution. He didn鈥檛 want Jungians, he wanted people to follow their own path of individuation. But there needs to be openness to what is not binary and for us to realize how steeped in privilege his theory is.听听

Angela: You describe yourself as a Jungian-oriented psychotherapist and scholar practicing in Mexico City, focusing on queerness, gender, and the deconstruction of masculinity. What鈥檚 it like to practice in Mexico City and how does deconstructing masculinity present itself in your practice?听

Chema: Practicing and living here is always rent by inequality. That鈥檚 always on my mind. In this country, being able to afford mental health services is difficult. It鈥檚 usually only available in urban areas for people who have more privileges, like money. That鈥檚 always tied to race. These issues operate differently than they do in the U.S.. There鈥檚 always a division between people who have been privileged and those who haven鈥檛. On the other hand, this is a place where we have a good relationship with the imagination and the collective unconscious. It鈥檚 rich to practice here, there鈥檚 freedom to explore therapeutic relationships.听听

In terms of the deconstruction of masculinity, on the one hand, Mexico 鈥渋nvented鈥� machismo and its presence in the culture. But the men who come to see me are more or less open or curious to this kind of work, and when they鈥檙e not, it doesn鈥檛 click. It can be too much for some people. When you鈥檙e a therapist with the intention of questioning norms or ways of living, that always introduces something that is uncomfortable. So being a queer therapist trying to imagine something different is always complicated. I used to work with teenagers a lot, and as I accept myself more, there is a myth of queer adults trying to convert children, so I question how much of myself I show or not and how it will affect the clinical space. On the other hand, there鈥檚 something about this work that is very exciting, very alive, something bigger that we鈥檙e trying to follow the invitation of. Exploring new territory involves fear but also something very rich and exciting trying to take form.听听

Angela: Your talk for Journey Week will focus on shame stymying individuation, and on how 鈥渜ueerness, through intergenerational bonds of kinship, can offer us a politics of survival or resistance to shame.鈥� What caught my eye was 鈥渋ntergenerational bonds of kinship.鈥� Can you tell us a little more about this aspect of your talk?听

Chema: This idea of intergenerational bonds of kinship I took from Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick; when you belong to certain marginalized groups, you have a culture and a family that shares this with you. If you鈥檙e indigenous or black, you experience oppression and marginalization, but there is also a community that has experienced the same things as you, and you can build a community around that. When you鈥檙e queer, this may not be so. You may be the only person in your family or church or neighborhood who is LGBTQ+. So you deal with a lot of shame, this sensation that there鈥檚 something profoundly wrong with you. Shame is a tool for enforcing social norms. People make you feel shame in order to make you conform. But if you decide not to conform, it鈥檚 difficult to navigate all of that alone. So intergenerational bonds of kinship means you meet other people who have been marginalized because of their identity or sexuality and they share and/or create ways of navigating these complexities together with you.听听

Angela: Do you have any forthcoming publications or projects that you鈥檇 like to share with us?听

Chema: I have this paper coming up in Psychological Perspectives, a volume which is dedicated especially to queerness.听听

Angela: Thank you so much for speaking with me, and I look forward to your panel at Journey Week!听

听Journey Week is an immersive week of learning and connecting at 51社区, September 26th 鈥� 29th, 2024. For more information and to register, visit us .